ECW Dallas: Round 2, Match 1: #1 Steve Austin vs #33 El Santo
Why the fuck would we shut down our government for the funeral of a celebrity much less a wrestler, our Government has far more important things to worry about then the death of the biggest wrestler in our country, Chrsit no wonder so many Mexicans flee their counrty with the government doing stupid shit like that
Yes, i think that's why so many Mexicans go to the USA. If the Mexicans want to stop them leaving, they shouldn't eliminate drug crime, or you know improve social conditions, they should stop having state funerals for preofessional wrestlers. Anyway, it wasn't closed because the government closed it, it was closed because so many people wanted to pay their respects that it greated gridlock. If you want to xenophobically call Mexicans stupud for doing that, go ahead. Rock, HBK, Hart, Taker, Triple H, Foley, etc. are not notable wrestlers?
How did he get the better of Hart? By losing their most high profile match? By getting his nek broken by his brother? Nope, that's not it. He got the better of Foley when Foley was Dude Love, as Makind he lost to him when they fought at the Survivor Series 1998 and at Summerslam 1999. He lost to Triple H at the culmination of their big feud at No Way Out 2001. Fair enough, he mostly got the better of The Rock, is about even with Taker, beat HBK on his way out, but my point stil stands, he was nowhere near as dominant in his era as Santo was in his.
How the fuck does this have anyhting to do with who would win the match?!?!
It doesn't, but people will certainly argue that Austin is better because he embodied the attitude era.
I'd like to think that the crowd really wouldn't effect Austin all that much, as soon as the bell rings he's got one goal on his mind and that's whooping Santos ass
Seeing how Austin's popularity stemmed almost entirely from playing the crowd with catchphrases, I think the crowd would be as important in this match as any.
Why the fuck would Austin go to Mexico when he's Main eventing for the biggest wrestling promotion in the world?, Santo never made it big outside of Mexico cause he knew he couldn't, at least guys like Guerrero and Mysterio had enough testicular fortitude to try and make it in big in promtions seen all over the world
Why the fuck would Santo go to America when he's Main eventing for the biggest wrestling promotion in the world? EMLL were just about the ONLY national wrestling promotion anywhere when he started. In an era when cards in North America were promoted regionally, EMLL were having huge shows in Mexico City and all over the country being headlined by Santo, and attended by thousands. The only difference in their positions is that Austin lives in an English speaking country in the era of cable television.
No promotion was seen all over the world, but the one that had the biggest consistant audience was Santo's, and he dominated it. Without Santo, there wouldn't be a Rey Mysterio or Guerreros because it was him that made wrestling as important and relevant as he did in Mexico. If you take Austin out of the history of wrestling, you lose a hugely important guy in his own era, if you take Santo out you lose the popularity of an entire style of wrestling. Any "someone else could have done it" arguments are wrong, nobody else did do it, and will be levelled right back at Austin.
Camel Clutch is going to be a bit hard to lock in when Austin is plummeling you in the head with a steel chair now isn't it, Santo will be lying in a pool of his own blood after getting stunned by Austin, and the whole rudo/tencio shit or whether the fans cheer or boo you doesn't matter in this match at all, all that matter if who walks out the winner and moves onto the next round
Stone Cold Stunner is going to be a bit hard to do, when Santo has punched Austin in the balls 8 times and he is doubling up in pain. Arguments like that hold no basis in anything, and you know it. If the crowd interaction doesn't matter, then what do you have? Wrestlers are defined by the crowd. If everyone shat their pants when you come to the ring, you'd become a main eventer, ask Jeff Hardy, if they didn't, you wouldn't, ask Shannon Moore. But if you want to ignore the crowd, look at the facts. Austin often lost big matches, such as the ones mentioned above. He lost the most defining match of his early career to Bret Hart. Santo rarely lost matches. In a battle of kayfabe, Santo wins. In a battle of popularity, Santo wins. In a battle of any criteria except "how american are you?", Santo wins.
Austin is the guy who near ran Rikishi over with his truck, Austin is the guy who lifted Triple H up in a car on a forklift 20 feet in the air and dropped his ass, Austin has shown time and time again he will do whatever it take s to get the job done, 8 low blows won't happen if Austin turns Santo into roadkill first
Did he do any of those things in a wrestling match? Oh yeah, no.
Their are plenty of reasons Austin goes over Santo, many of them end with the fact that Austin is just plain better
How is he better? Because you've watched him win? I appreciate that you've said he is more pugnacious, but the fact that Austin pulled stunts doesn;'t make him any better in the ring, or any more likely to win.
You have just lost all credibility in my opinion...ALL. Where the hell to even start.
I didn't know you attributed me any credibility, nothing ventured nothing gained I suppose. Seriously though, I appreciate you disagree, but I'm hardly arguing for some nobody to go over Austin. If this was in the Austin vs. Skinner thread, maybe I'd feel ALL credibility being lost was warranted, but not here.
Lets start with both of their star power. Santo was a big star in Mexico, great for him. Throw him and whatever rinky dink federation he was in into the USA and either Vince would have bought them out or Austin would have put them out of business during the Attitude Era, just see the WCW story. WCW had alot of problmes internally but their biggest external problem was the WWF and Austin and you put that federation El Santo competed in in the USA and Austin would have eliminated them easily.
Santo didnt stick to one federration as it were throughout his career, but he mostly worked in EMLL. Seeing as their shows are better attended than the WWE's, they have been around for about 25 years longer than the WWE or any of its predecessors, and they were selling out shows in their own purpose built arena week in week out 60 years before the first episode of Raw aired, I think it's a little harsh to call them "rinky dink".
McMahon didn't put WCW out of business, WCW did. He struck lucky with Austin, and I'm not denying the impact Austin had, but the popularity of Austin in 1999 in America is nothing on the popularity of Santo in 1969 in Mexico. Maybe Santo wouldn't have been popular in America in the 90s, but he wasn't trying to be. If we really want to go down this road, lets compare shall we. Nobody like Austin was remotely popular in Mexico in the 50s and 60s. A charismatic guy in a mask, Rey Mysterio, has been popular in the US in the 1990s, so if anything Santo would fare better in Austin's environment, than Austin would in Santo's.
As far as great wrestlers go lets look at this....Austin has fought the following all in their primes...The Rock, Undertaker, HBK...not just their WM match look at KOTR, HHH, Angle, Benoit, Bret Hart, Owen Hart....name me a man on that list he didnt beat???
It's not a matter of beating or not, but a matter of who he was consistently better than. I've already answered this previously. Also, beating Owen Hart and Chris Benoit does not make you a great wrestler. There's no point in me reeling off the names of people that Santo has beat, because they won't mean anything, but he beat EVERYBODY who meant anything over a long time, Austin had a few wins and a few losses against the people he fought in a shorter timespan. Not to mention the fact that he refused to lose to people on quite a number of occaisions.
Austin REVOLUTIONIZED AN INDUSTRY. He made the cursing and violence cool not only in his federation WWF, but the competition WCW too. Its one thing to transform your federation but to transform the competition as well is a feat only Austin has been able to do. Hogan in WWF never transformed WCW. The more the WWF tried to get him to be a heel the more he was cheered. No one in the history of this business did that.
Santo was a heel that was cheered. He did it in the 1960s, nothing pioneering there Austin. I don't think people seem to grasp how important Santo was. You can argue that Austin single handedly changed the industry, he didn't, but you can argue that he did. Santo not only changed the industry by making the characters of lucha libre become real heroes for the audiences, but he also popularized wrestling to a degree that Austin could only dream about.
As far as Texas goes....were you there for this years Hall of Fame or WM? If not, you really have no justifiable point as TV did not do it justice. When the glass shattered at both events you could barely hear the music. If Austin had a match at WM it could have been anyone but Jesus Christ himself and Austin would have been the fan favorite.
So, the crowd cheered him at an event dedicated to him? Well done. I'm not saying Austin isn't popular, I'm saying that 42.4% of people in Dallas are hispanic and that therefore Santo, a hispanic hero, would also have a huge following. Bearing in mind that wrestling is more popular in hispanic communities than white ones, the crowd support for each man would be fairly similar.
Why woudl Steve Austin want to make it big in Mexico when he was the biggest star in wrestling/sports entertainment. The last time i checked many people are coming to the USA illegal everyday from Mexico...not the other way around. If yoiu want to make a name for yourself you come to the States. Austin is arguably the biggest name to ever compete in the world of professional wrestling and some guy from Mexico isnt in his class. If you want to make it in that class you need to be extremely popular in multiple countries. Austin was popular in the US nad overseas.
Austin wasn't popular anywhere except the WWE. He bombed in WCW, and people can snide at Bischoff all they want, but if you have a guy that doesn't draw anything, then would you keep him on the roster. Santo was popular everywhere he wrestled, something that Austin could never claim to be. Santo did wrestle in Houston, as I've said before, in front of fairly big crowds, but without his mask and character. He lived at a time when very few wrestlers crossed borders, and international weekly television broadcasts didn't exist. Nobody would level this criticism at Lou Thesz, but because Santo lives in a different country and the WWE don't get a stiffy over him, nobody talks about him. Austin was popular verseas in that he appeared on WWE cards that took place overseas. Santo wasn't that popular in America because he rarely fought there, but he was popular in Argentina, Ecuador, Haiti, Cuba, Spain, Colombia, Puerto Rico... but I suppose, being Spanish speaking countries they don't count, right?
Austin was a technically gifted wrestler till he broke his neck, and if memory serves me right after that when he started opening up cans of whoop asss up on people his popularity rose to heights no one has ever reached. After the neck injury Austin could outbrawl anyone and if memory serves me right even after that he could still be a good technical wrestler, loook at his match against Angle or Benoit from RAW i cant remember who.
Show me a match where he is Stone Cold and a solid technical wrestler. He never was because it wouldn't suit the character, and the fact that he injured his neck only hammered this point home more. It isn't his fault that he broke his neck, but he did and was a brawler after that. Santo was a bawler too, but one who was faster and could rely on technical wrestling if need be, he has more options to bring to the table than Austin.
He was taller and weighed more sure, but he was damn sure way more intense and in your face which is waht a brawler needed to be. He would gladly take a beating just to hand out a greater one. Camel Clutch, BIG DEAL, this is the same man who refused to say "I Quit" while in the Sharpshooter at WM. Do you really think he would quit in that??? I think NOT.
Ok, I will ignore the fact that afinishing move by someone older is miraculously more powerful if done by someone old, and go with his other submission finisher, the boston crab. Or any of his other various diving headbutts etc. Santo has plenty in his arsenal that could be used to beat Austin, it was an example. Very few people have ever powered out of a camel clutch finisher, and Austin isn't one of them.
ECW was exactly what it was. But one thing you cant argue is that ECW remembered its own and stood by them no matter what. Look at RVD vs. John Cena from ONS. Austin has roots in ECW and when both guys stood in the ring and El Santo was announced the crowd would start the WHAT? chatn. And just in case he didnt understand that, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Ol Rattlesnake would have a finger or two to relay exactly what he and everyone else thought about him. We have all seen Austin unleash an ass whooping on everyone and he has no remorse in doing so. I would like to remind you about Austins first blood match with Kane, now yes he lost the match, but Kane also said if he lost he would set himself on fire, well the week before on raw this is the same Stone Cold who said he sit their and drink beer and watch kane burn and if he started to go out you could rest assure Ol Stone Cold would be right there to throw another log on the fire. This is a man who has no remorse, if you want sympathy take your ass to church El Santo. Austin is going to open one quick huge can of whoop ass.
This sums it up really. People like Austin because he was a promo man, and he was a big deal when they were younger. Santo is that to a different generation. Like you said, he lost that match, but tis ok because he spurted out some catchphrases beforehand, so he's still cool. Austin was cabable of getting a reaction on the mic, whereas Santo's popularity came from his in ring work. The crowd loved watching him wrestle and win, they did not love him because they could finish off his catchphrases for him. Steve Austin may have wrestled in ECW, but I'd hardly call him one of their own. His influence, importance and legacy in ECW is fuck all on RVD's.
I clearly don't think that Austin only had catchphrases, and I'm not denying his impact, but compared to Santo, he just isn't in the same league of popularity.
To say El Santo should be Austin is just ridiculous. Steve Austin is better in every way than Santo ever was. When you llook back at prowrestling in twenty years, hell even now, Austin is look at as one if the biggest two stars to ever lace up the boots. This match is going to be El Santo confused by the crowd, fingers, stunner, Austin wins, beer bash.
Confused by fingers? If Austin did that kind of shit against someone faster than him, he'd be on his arse very quickly. I can't iterate enough how much more of a big deal in wrestling Santo was than Stone Cold, but because the people on this site are Anglo Saxons watching American wrestling, Stone Cold will be seen as the popular one in this match. Austin has nothing on Santo, except for the fact that he is American. Santo is quicker, more popular, has won a higher percentage of his most important matches and has been a mega star from the day he first stepped into the ring to the day he died.
You can talk about Austin 3:16 shirts all you like, he has the fortune of working in a commercialised world. Santo didn't, but he still has T-shirts made for him, because he is such a cult hero.
See?In all seriousness, Austin is a great wrestler, but he is not the performer that Santo was, and as a result I have to say Santo would go over in this match aftera long, by ECW standards anyway, classic.
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